Thick oil pump gasket, Pump doesn’t line up Options

[Chad911sc]

So my plan was to start assembling the 2056 today, but I found this when placing the oil pump into the case. I measured the gap needed to fill with a gasket, and it’s right at 3mm. Do they make a thick pump to case gasket that will fill this space, so that the rubber sealing ring will be in the case instead of hanging out the back of it??
The gaskets that came with the pump are way to thin to place the pump in the correct position.

[fixer34]

I don't think you should need a 3mm thick gasket, the paper style is normal.
Either the pump is machined incorrectly or the mounting surface was milled way too much. Hoping it just a bad pump...

[Geezer914]

Check the clearance to the cam gear with the cam installed.

[Montreal914]

That groove tawards the inside doesn't look like an O-ring groove, if this is what you are thinking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Ninja]

I'd check the line up of the oil pump ports to case too.

Might add clarity as to proper depth.

I'd prefer the holes in the pump line up perfectly with the holes in the cases.

[Chad911sc]

So the pump body is definitely too long. It’s just shy of 2mm longer than the previous pump that came out of the running motor. I have sent pictures and explanation to the company I bought it from. The boss on the back of the pump where the gear engages the cam gear is also a hair longer as well. It bottoms out against the cam as you can see in the first pic.

[porschetub]

So the pump body is definitely too long. It’s just shy of 2mm longer than the previous pump that came out of the running motor. I have sent pictures and explanation to the company I bought it from. The boss on the back of the pump where the gear engages the cam gear is also a hair longer as well. It bottoms out against the cam as you can see in the first pic.

Now that looks better ,that new pump is clearly wrong as is the machined ? 'o'ring groove as mentioned it is a mess and not cut right on the wrong pump besides.
Believe your oil pressure issue was a bent crank so I would say you will be fine using the pump that fits properly if it is in good condition ,good luck as appears like you need some after your hassles ,cheers.

[Chad911sc]

Yes, I think I will be ok using the non o-ringed pump since the issue was the out of round crank. I was just trying to knock out every source of oil pressure issue while having it apart. I guess the oil pumps from Low budget VW are type 1 only and do not fit in the type 4 cases. Just a heads up for the next guy that as far as I can find, no one makes a o-ring pump for the type 4 engine.
I’m not sure what oil pump this was that was in the engine previously, so I will just order a 26mm CB maxi pump and put it in when it arrives.

[Jack Standz]

Gene Berg still makes o-ringed type 1 oil pumps (hard anodized too):

https://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?c...products_id=384

Not home right now, so can't measure any Type IV cases to see if there are differences between any of them. Just a guess,, but maybe that low bugget pump used a dished cam oil pump body and not a flat cam one?

[Chad911sc]

I looked on the Gene Berg site earlier today because I thought I had remembered someone in the past saying they had them, couldn’t find it. But there it is! I think that is the route I would like to go, because I want to take all the precautions I can to keep the idle pressure up.
Not sure about the dished cam idea, but the pump doesn’t line up with the oil ports either. If you pull the pump back so that the o-ring is in the proper place inside the case, then the ports line up correctly also. But you then have that 3mm gap between the pump and the case itself. I don’t understand why it’s so off because it is a type 1 pump. The circumference is spot on. It’s a 30mm Schadek type 1 pump that was modified by low budget VW.
I don’t get it either??

[stownsen914]

I've understood that type 1 pumps require machining to fit into a type 4. Not sure about the length of the pump body, but I believe one of the areas that needs to be addressed is the alignment of the oil ports as you've noted.

[Chad911sc]

So I called Gene Berg today and talked to their tech. The tech was under the assumption that the type 1 pumps that they sell, are for the VW type 1 cases only. I explained the situation with the other type 1 pump that I had ordered from low budget VW, and he seemed to think that his pump would probably be the same. So I’m not sure when they say modified for a type four, what that means? It’s definitely not a minor adjustment of the oiling holes, because as stated earlier, it’s a 3mm gap at the face to align the o ring inside the case halves and to make the oil holes line up properly.
I am just going to have to use the CB 26mm maxi pump, and call it good.

[Superhawk996]

SMH.

This commentary isn’t directed at the OP but is a general rant.

There is so much nonsense going on to avoid using the proper T4 pump in 914’s that it is sort of ridiculous. Especially given 914’s or engine rebuilds are no longer cheap.

As noted, the T1 pump needs modification of the case and the cam drive to use on a T4. See pic.

I’m baffled other companies are advertising pumps for T4 use that don’t have the mods but I guess that is the current state of automotive aftermarket - about 80% of it is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) and I run into this for all cars not just 914 stuff. Get your pumps from someone like LN engineering that knows what is needed to modify the T1 pump properly. I might even go so far as to ask LN if they would Oring the pump but just like using a local machinist - it will cost $$.



Now having said that T1 pumps need mods - I’m just beside myself that people won’t take the time to modify a good T4 pump by pinning the idler shaft. Keep in mind that unless the oil pump ingested schrapnel from a catastrophic failure, oil pumps rarely are worn out. The practice of simply scrapping T4 pump cores to put a cheap aftermarket T1 pump in is short sighted in my opinion.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

The T4 pump was a superior pump design that was evolved by VW to address the shortcomings of the T1 pump.

Unfortunately T4 pumps are more expensive to produce due to the form factor and the need to hold very tight tolerance of the pump body OD where it fits in the case. At this point in time so many have tossed good OEM T4 pumps and/or pumps that could have easily been pinned that T4 pumps are now in short supply and a bit pricy when you can find a CNC type 4 pump (like $300) last time they were available. But at $300 (or more) to produce a good quality T4 pump I know that the majority of the 914 and VW crowd will refuse to pony up for a T4 pump and will continue to chase the $30-$60 T1 pumps. There is no motivation for anyone to tool up a mass produced T4 pump and it has become a self fulfilling death spiral for T4 pump availability.

Moral of the story: if you have a decent T4 pump that hasn’t pumped garbage, pin the idler shaft and keep the higher quality pump.

[friethmiller]

Moral of the story: if you have a decent T4 pump that hasn’t pumped garbage, pin the idler shaft and keep the higher quality pump.

Awesome! Can you post the link to your "pinning thread", again?

[Superhawk996]

Moral of the story: if you have a decent T4 pump that hasn’t pumped garbage, pin the idler shaft and keep the higher quality pump.

Awesome! Can you post the link to your "pinning thread", again?

Not my thread but a guy over on Thesamba has done an extensive write up taking it to the Nth level.

There are photos and explanation on how to pin the pump about 3/4 way through.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156

The only thing I do slightly differently in addition is use Locktite on the set screw and I also peen the set screw to ensure that can’t loosen. Overkill OCD but costs nothing.

[Jack Standz]

Generally, modifying a type 1 oil pump (please note that there are many styles of type 1 oil pumps) for use in a type iv motor includes actions like:

Clearancing the back of the pump so the cam gear fasteners don't hit the pump. Another option to address just this issue is to use a cam gear from the type iv store that clearances the cam gear and using lower profile fasteners.

Clearancing one corner of the pump cover because it hits an engine case mounting boss.

Longer case studs.

Some add 1, 2, or even 3 o-rings to seal up the type one pump within the case. This of course means cutting grooves in the pump body for the o-rings.

Not 100% sure, but, sometimes the "nose of the pump" where the camshaft driven oil pump shaft resides might need some machining for certain type 1 oil pumps.

Note that there are different types of type 1 oil pumps, like: 6mm studs, 8mm studs, flat cam style, dished cam style, modified for full flow, etc. etc. Others might have additional things done to modify a type 1 oil pump for use in a type iv.

You might want to do some more research about the o-ringed type 1 oil pump you have already. This vendor/parts supplier uses a spacer with their modified type 1 pump for use in a type iv.

https://germansupply.com/type-4-oil-pump-ki...l#product-tabs1

Good luck!

[Jack Standz]

Or use a good type iv oil pump and pin the shaft like discussed above by @Superhawk996 .

[Jack Standz]

Moral of the story: if you have a decent T4 pump that hasn’t pumped garbage, pin the idler shaft and keep the higher quality pump.

Awesome! Can you post the link to your "pinning thread", again?

Not my thread but a guy over on Thesamba has done an extensive write up taking it to the Nth level.

There are photos and explanation on how to pin the pump about 3/4 way through.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=699156

The only thing I do slightly differently in addition is use Locktite on the set screw and I also peen the set screw to ensure that can’t loosen. Overkill OCD but costs nothing.

Yeah, really like Ray Greenwood's information. Learned lots of things from reading his posts on The Samba.

[Geezer914]

Oil pressure on a T4 pump compared to a 26mm T1 pump?