How long are 914s supposed to last?, Sorting through the myths Options

[JeffBowlsby]

We like these old cars for our own reasons, but we often hear:

"...remember, these cars [or their parts] were not built to last more than ___ years, they are commodities with a limited useful life." "we live in a throw-away society"...but our cars are not generally disposables with a short time line or priced as such.

I recently saw a Model A with 20K original miles, original paint. At 90-some years old it was a great car for its time and for what it is today. I think the draw is more than just nostalgia, its respect for good design, engineering and an owners regular maintenance.

Todays cars are generally not made from water soluble materials or short life span elements (other than disposable maintenance items) - they have steel not wood chassis, glass not plastic windows, durable leather/fabric not paper seats, etc. With exceptions, generally capable of lasting more than a few years and they cost enough to justify the durability.

Todays manufacturers give warranties of X years, Y miles. All that seems to mean is that they won't pay for maintenance or service after that limited time is up which is just a limitation of liability for those costs, not that the car is only expected to function that long. Not an unreasonable condition of sale, and most cars won't explode when the warranty expires.

Seems counter to the disposable argument that 50-ish years later the original manufacturer still supports these old cars with many factory OEM new parts (albeit of limited selection) and many 914s are still thriving. If it were true that they were only intended to last a certain short period of time, then the mfr. would not be obligated to continue to support them. But they do.

[bbrock]

Great topic! I've never bought into the disposable car idea. Sure, there was great effort to keep costs down to an entry level price point, but I see little evidence that corners were cut to reduce longevity. To the contrary, these cars were packed with many of the latest innovations of the time in an overall design following Piech's idea of what a sports car should be. Costs were kept down largely by building a somewhat demanding design by leveraging economies of scale from using off the shelf VW parts as much as possible.

My guess is that the design team wished these cars long and happy lives but there was only so much that could be done to extend lifespan within price constraints and technology of the time. I doubt longevity was a major objective but that is not the same as being "disposable". They probably just wanted to build a machine with good performance (but not so good as to overshadow the flagship), with a fit and finish befitting of an entry level Porsche, and durable enough to eat into profits with loads of warranty repairs. Beyond that, it is just gravy.

[Shivers]

40 years, three engines, untold thousands of miles with the same transmission. I've never had a caliper go bad, only pads. Replaced the MC with a 19mm, or the old one would still be in there. Gauges still work, blinkers blink and the lights still pop up. If they were trying to build a disposable vehicle, they really screwed up. The only car that just kept running like this one was my 55' VW.

[wonkipop]

We like these old cars for our own reasons, but we often hear:



I recently saw a Model A with 20K original miles, original paint. At 90-some years old it was a great car for its time and for what it is today. I think the draw is more than just nostalgia, its respect for good design, engineering and an owners regular maintenance.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)



appreciating a great past work of design and engineering might be nostalgic.
but not always.

i think the hostile climate of the northern hemisphere where most of the car industry was centred probably drove the idea of "obsolete" into a quicker cycle than it otherwise might have. body shell structural rust etc.

it was certainly the case in australia right up to the mid 90s that the service life of cars was well stretched out by owners, beyond the expectations of manufacturers. the cars did not rust (or not so quickly and severely). people here were poorer in relative terms than prosperous americans (even the middle class) and cars were expensive when compared to other western countries. cars were looked after, rebuilt mechanically and generally made to last as long as possible by owners. there was a practical side to it.
Kiwis tell me it was the same, if not more extreme, in NZ.

i have to admit that is gone now. australians might well be the most rampant consumers on the planet these days. more so than americans if you can believe that.

but what i am i saying. i think genuine respect for mechanical tools (and a good car is a good tool) is something bred by necessity. i've seen some pretty amazing daily drivers of great age still getting around in aus, not as much as i used to, but i have even more respect for that use and maintenance of a car than i do for my molly coddling of my 914.
but if you think a car is an appliance rather than a tool, well.........it will be nothing more than a toaster to you, rather than a good hammer.


as an after-thought - and particular to the 914. the type 4 engine is a sturdy engineered unit when compared to the earlier vw engines, ie the type 3. in australia it was not unusual for type 3 engines to last only 30,000m before burning or dropping valves on the #3 cylinder. the dreaded lay down oil cooler a long way from the fan. but the rest of the car would be perfect, barely run in. so you would just rebuild the motor. i was on my third rebuild and facing my 4th when i finally retired my old variant. that was definitely a factor with older cars here, you would usually find you would wear out the engine long before the rest of the car showed any form of terminal wear big $ death sentences. it was nothing to rebuild a motor. in the right environment, like a desert or dry climate, 914s were all set up to last a lot longer than perhaps even VW might have imagined. part of the reason VW gave up production in australia? the cars were too good and lasted too long? all those famous VW ads from the 60s in north america came true in australia ---- the cars never changed much year to year, you could be driving an old one and ..... it still looked new. its only in the last 10 years that i have noticed beetles completely disappear off the roads here. the last of them were still getting flogged into the ground in the early 21C as daily drivers a good 25-30 years after the production line closed down. they finally rusted out on the C pillars down here - but the floor pans were still intact.

[iankarr]

I think the concept of intended/usable lifespan is built in to the engineering process. Just like with bridges, pacemakers, roofing shingles...and humans. Some last longer, some shorter. I think it's more about baseline expectations than practical reality. Maintenance and care affect those expectations greatly. So it's possible to blow past the expected usable life by decades. Man, I gotta put down this bacon and mayo sandwich and get myself back to the gym.

[Superhawk996]

Answer is straight forward in engineering terms.

10 years, 100,000 miles was standard engineering design life going back into the 80's. I'm not sure exactly what VW/Porsche engineering life was in the 70's but it was probably close to that.

That doesn't mean actual vehicle life can't be extended. We've all heard of million mile VW bugs, busses, Volvo's, etc.

Where it gets fuzzy is that in order to demonstrate statistical certainty that the the component will meet design life, it will be designed with a substantial safety margin. In reality, critical parts (LCA, struts, wheels, etc.) are designed to ensure they have multiple design lifes (ranging from 10-100x life). Becuase of this margin, we can reasonably expect a 50 year old part with 200,000 miles PROBABLY won't catastrophically fail. No gurantee but not highly likely.

Likewise, a high mileage rust free chassis may still be functional but you can bet that it isn't as stiff as it once was. Or, that an engine would be down on power, but it is a resonable expectation that the crankshaft will never break on a stock engine and has been designed for multiple design lives.

Here's a quick paper on Weibull life analysis of chassis parts if anyone cares. Literally ton's of SAE papers on this topic out there for anyone really interested.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/...81/1/012057/pdf

[horizontally-opposed]

In the old days (pre 1975~), and in certain (many) places, rust determined longevity. And it still can.

In the modern era, plastics getting brittle, soy-based wire insulation, expensive/complex repairs, and cheap lease/purchase payments send many otherwise serviceable cars into oblivion.

I actually think there was a high point when it came to materials quality used in cars, perhaps sometime around the end of oil-based paints. You saw it with BMWs of the late 1980s and early 1990s, with paint that just kept shining, and shining, and shining—even if it wasn't cared for. Glass headlights back then, too, and the plastics were more limited than they are now. The 914 had a lot of metal parts, and the plastics that were there held up pretty well. Not that there weren't other issues with cars of the 1970s through the 1990s, but I think cars have become more disposable. When was the last time you saw an E60 5 Series driving around? There's only one that I still see regularly, a V10 M5. But the guy stopped washing the wheels months ago, which I fear means he's seen the DSG warning light of death. The inline six version of those cars may be worse, as there was a 55-gallon barrel/drum full of what appeared to be the same part in a shop where a friend and I were working on my 914. "What's this?" I asked. "E60 injectors," he said. "They go bad, and you have to replace all six at once." He then mentioned some insane parts price for one injector (x6…), plus labor, and explained that shops now collected the used injectors to have them rebuilt. I just about never see E60s on the road anymore, and they were everywhere not so many years ago. There are plenty of other examples…

My take is that most cars, whether Model As, 914s, or more recent cars, can stay on the road for a very, very long time (300,000 to 1,000,000 miles) with the right care and feeding, a little luck, the right environment/use, and committed owners. Ever see the million-mile Lexus LS400? Makes my 255,000-mile 914 and those 400,000-mile Carrera 3.2s look like underachievers…

[bbrock]

10 years, 100,000 miles was standard engineering design life going back into the 80's. I'm not sure exactly what VW/Porsche engineering life was in the 70's but it was probably close to that.

Which is why I don't think these cars were meant to be "disposable." They were built to last as long as the industry standard and they hit that mark well. Even in the salty Midwest, 914's tended to rust just slightly slower than the engines wore out. By 100K miles, the engine would be ready for a rebuild but the chassis often still had some years left on it even though it would be showing its age. An engine overhaul would extend its life and that is not really built into the design standard as it is intended to provide a service life before MAJOR overhaul of one or more systems components were needed.

On the other side, there are models that just keep going from the era Pete mentioned. Our first new car purchase was a 1991 Nissan Pathfinder. We still have that car and I still drive it regularly as it is pushing 300K miles. I've done some rust repair, replaced the clutch once, and replace a perfectly functioning alternator for a higher output unit to run my snow plow. This car that has never been garaged, rarely washed, and it has been decades since it was waxed has only recently start having the clear coat fail. When I drive it in town, I'm amazed at how many of those old hard body style Pathfinders are still on the road. Just about every parking lot has one I can park next to for comradery. I doubt the engineers who designed these cars were trying to build immortal vehicles, but I doubt the fact that they did makes them unhappy.

[anderssj]

When I bought my 914, I figured its expected useful life to be around 10 years or 100K miles (probably warped a little by growing up in MinneSOta). Now it's 49 years this month and just north of 244K miles. Thanks to this website, knowledgable friends, and a dedicated vendor community (Mikey, Eric, and all the rest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) ), my car is in the best shape ever.

I think availability of quality parts makes a huge difference. I've had quite a few Volvo 240s over the last 40 ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) years and they have racked up some impressive numbers (two over 300K miles, one over 400K; the last two have 230K and 177K). Problem with these cars is a growing lack of quality parts, especially the interior, exterior, and suspension parts that keep the cars comfortable, safe, and looking good. Once its supporting parts supply dries up, it gets increasingly difficult to keep any car on the road.

[Jamie]

As part of this longevity discussion, I've often heard that the sheet metal used in 914's is thinner that what was used in the top line Porsches of the era. I'm not a body repair guy like so many others here, so is that true? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

[Root_Werks]

I agree with the 10 years, 100,000 miles for most 60's, 70's and 80's cars. If a car manufacturer mass produced a model that was designed to last 100 years and a million miles, it'd cost bucks and put them outa business. No one would have to buy a new car! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[914Sixer]

Since the 914 was built by VW I would expect the longevity was assumed to be the same as the VW line.

[Montreal914]

Climate is the key! Body rust is the killer in my book, having lived in a very aggressive environment. 10 years out of a car, was definitely good. Body and structure would let go before mechanics.

Now, compare this to SoCal, our fleet is up to 19 years old with piles of miles and every body and chassis panel is pristine steel with original paint. Mechanical components are available and can be relatively easily replaced. With pick a part, FLAPS, and web, these could easily run forever with a set of wrenches, which are typically available and used by regular folks. Bodywork, sheetmetal welding, etc. requires a different set of tools and skills that are not as easily accessible/known.

Why do most 914s get parted out? Typically because of the rust cancer, not so much because of engine failure...

[Shivers]

The valance's sheetmetal is paper thin. I found on the bird forum that the sheet metal was +- 20 ga. during the 70's on 911's. I read here more than once that 20 ga seems to be close, and is what many are using for their 914's. The bumper's aren't much more than another body panel.

[StarBear]

Regular oil changes, washing, tuneups and routine maintenance on brakes and trans fluids keep most cars humming well past their statistical lives. Barring other idiot drivers and random acts of probability, of course.
This thread got me thinking - I’m still on my original alternator belt. Time for a replacement before roadside assistance or a tow is needed.

[Tom_T]

Great topic Jeff! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I've always felt that a well maintained vehicle should be able to last indefinitely - assuming the ability to find or make replacement parts as needed.

Certainly that's shown by the guy back east with the 1+ million mile Volvo P1800.

Of note for our 914s is that many folks on here daily drive their 914s at at 45-51 years old now - whereas you won't find many other 1970-76 cars still driven daily. And the Ford Model As & Ts that you mentioned wasn't being DD'ed at 45-50 - but rather was driven limited miles for pleasure either as a resto or a hot rod - or your low mile survivor.

As for myself - I really like & have kept 3 of my 5 cars that I've ever owned since Fall 1969 - - that's right, only 5 cars owned in 52 years!

While I did sell my #1 1968 Opel Kadett & #2 1969 Pontiac Ventura back in 1971 & 1976 respectively - I've kept the other three #3-5 & DD #4 & #5, while the #3 914 will be for fun. However, we're driving fewer miles per year with kids grown & gone, & us retired or semi-retired (whatever that means).

I do still own my #3 2nd owner `73 914-2.0 with 172K miles (although not currently drivable until resto/repairs done) -


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And my #4 OO 1985 BMW 325e E30 with 203K miles & still a DD -


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And my #5 OO 1988 VW Westfalia with 240K miles & also a DD -


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And the same holds true for Trailers too - as with our 95% original 1970 Eriba Puck in the pic above, and with our restored 1960 Avion T20 below - although we're +/- 4th or 5th owners of them (2nd owner since 2012 of the Avion, since its 2007 resto) -


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No we don't tow the bigger & heavier Avion with the wheezy Westy - but that Newport Dunes Vintage Trailer/RV Rally event is 10+ miles from home & we caravan together, which we started doing so my wife could drive to work if she was on-call that weekend as a hospital RN.

However, we'll eventually get a #6 SUV as the Avion tow vehicle once things get back to normal & we can use the Avion again, & after the current COVID driven price surges on new & used cars & trucks get back to normal too- hopefully a Porsche Cayenne - and we'd keep that one too.


The moral of my story for members is to take care of your 914s - & other cars etc. - & they'll be around for as long as you are, & maybe longer if your kids or whomever is next does so too!

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

Regular oil changes, washing, tuneups and routine maintenance on brakes and trans fluids keep most cars humming well past their statistical lives. Barring other idiot drivers and random acts of probability, of course.
This thread got me thinking - I’m still on my original alternator belt. Time for a replacement before roadside assistance or a tow is needed.

Get 2 - a spare belt should be part of any 914er's road tool kit.

Porsche used to include them for 356s & 911s/912s/912Es/930s - but not for our 914s - other than 914-6s which had the 911 tool kit IIRC.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[930cabman]

40 years, three engines, untold thousands of miles with the same transmission. I've never had a caliper go bad, only pads. Replaced the MC with a 19mm, or the old one would still be in there. Gauges still work, blinkers blink and the lights still pop up. If they were trying to build a disposable vehicle, they really screwed up. The only car that just kept running like this one was my 55' VW.

Made me recall the old Woody Allen movie, something like "Everything you wanted to know about sex, ...." Remember the scene when Woody comes across a beetle in a cave somewhere, he gets in and it starts right up and they drive away. I am not sure if that would happen with our new vehicles with several computers on board and zillions of connections

[Ansbacher]

Anything well designed and well built originally can go forever with scheduled maintenance, upgrades, and corrosion control. Look at the B-52 Stratofortress- designed in the late forties, first flew in the early fifties, end of production early sixties, and we are still flying about 70 of them. Keeping a 914 on the road is miniscule in comparison.

Ansbacher

[Jonathan Livesay]

40 years, three engines, untold thousands of miles with the same transmission. I've never had a caliper go bad, only pads. Replaced the MC with a 19mm, or the old one would still be in there. Gauges still work, blinkers blink and the lights still pop up. If they were trying to build a disposable vehicle, they really screwed up. The only car that just kept running like this one was my 55' VW.

Made me recall the old Woody Allen movie, something like "Everything you wanted to know about sex, ...." Remember the scene when Woody comes across a beetle in a cave somewhere, he gets in and it starts right up and they drive away. I am not sure if that would happen with our new vehicles with several computers on board and zillions of connections

With modern gas it's not happening with the bug anymore either.