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> 1.8L starter problems, car won't start!
aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 10:31 AM
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I'm trying not to let my 1975 1.8L turn into a garage queen. A few weeks after taking the car in for some general service work (brakes, ignition, fuel delivery problems, etc). The car started and ran fine. Suddenly the car would not crank. I took the battery in to Autozone to be tested and it tested fine. Next I looked at the starter. After pulling it and taking it to my mechanic, it tested bad- it would spin but the solenoid would not push the gear out.
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I ordered a starter off Amazon, consequently the starter drive gear did not look the same.
My old one looked like this: https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting...gen/beetle/2001

But the new one looked like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y85Q7...=UTF8&psc=1
(or vice versa, I can't remember which.

When I arc the contact points, the new starter spins and seems to spin and engage the flywheel fine.

However the car still would not start using the key. I did some research and found this how-to on Pelican: https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...tion_switch.htm

I looked at the passenger seat belt switch and it seemed to be jumpered fine with good connection, so I assumed my starter switch at the key was bad. Despite my steering column not looking like the one in the tutorial, I was able to remove and swap it for a new one (Old was looked fine, was not cracked).
The car still will not start with the key with a fully charged battery.
Are there any switches that I am missing???
Any help is certainly appreciated!
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 10:32 AM
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 10:33 AM
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Frankvw
post May 27 2020, 10:38 AM
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there is a small connector on the starterside. Check if it is connected. If it is, check if it gives 12V when you turn the key.
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE(Frankvw @ May 27 2020, 11:38 AM) *

there is a small connector on the starterside. Check if it is connected. If it is, check if it gives 12V when you turn the key.


OK, thanks. Well on the starter, there are three terminals I see:
1. a positive where most wires hook up.
2. a terminal for what looks to me like a ground strap between the solenoid and starter
3. a small terminal where one small black wire's fitting slips on.

Which do you mean?
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taylspin46
post May 27 2020, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE(aaronc70 @ May 27 2020, 09:19 AM) *

QUOTE(Frankvw @ May 27 2020, 11:38 AM) *

there is a small connector on the starterside. Check if it is connected. If it is, check if it gives 12V when you turn the key.


OK, thanks. Well on the starter, there are three terminals I see:
1. a positive where most wires hook up.
2. a terminal for what looks to me like a ground strap between the solenoid and starter
3. a small terminal where one small black wire's fitting slips on.

Which do you mean?

The 8mm conn with the large black and two reds should have 12V always.
The small black wire should have 12 V when cranking only.
Obviously there has been rewiring.
Where is the yellow wire (connected to the blue wire) going? Yellow wire was probably original and went where single black wire is now.
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ClayPerrine
post May 27 2020, 12:22 PM
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If your new starter looks like the one in the Amazon link https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y85Q7...=UTF8&psc=1

Then you have the wrong starter. That is an ongoing issue with starters for 914s. Somebody mislabeled a starter years ago, and the problem persists. It may work for now, but it is eventually going to tear up your flywheel ring gear.

Get with one of the reputable vendors (AutoAtlanta, Pelican, Stoddard, Zims, etc...) and they will get you the right starter.

The starter will interchange with a 911 starter, and the new Porsche replacements from Bosch are great. They will spin an engine much faster than the original did. Or you can get a gear drive starter. They will not have hot start issues.

The jumper in the starter lead is a band-aid. Remove it and splice the wires together with a linesman splice and heat shrink for a permanent fix.

Then, starting at the starter, hook a spade connector on the end of a 12G wire to make a jumper. Hook the connector to the starter, and touch the other end to the positive battery post. The car should crank.

Move to the relay board, and hook the jumper to one of the rear two pins on the 4 pin connector on the left rear of the relay board. Again the car should crank when you touch the wire to the positive battery post.

Next, the connection under the seat, do the same with the connection for the interlock relay (Before splicing).

If all that works, replace the ignition switch. They are notorious for breaking and failing.

Good luck.
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 12:33 PM
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Clay, etc,
WOW, OK, thanks for the troubleshooting directions. I'll have to print these out and get to work. I wasn't able to bring up your link but I'm guessing I did get the wrong starter, as it did not look like the on I pulled out of the car, which had given me no problems up until a couple weeks ago.
Jumpering the starter at the terminals, i did start to hear sort of a grinding sound after about 30 seconds. I'm guessing that's the part about tearing up the flywheel you mentioned.
Since I already hauled the old one off, It looks like I'll be buying a new starter- this time from a reputable source.
Thanks again for the help, I'll post my outcome here in a few weeks.
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 08:45 PM
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there is a small connector on the starterside. Check if it is connected. If it is, check if it gives 12V when you turn the key. -It did not give me 12V

Where is the yellow wire (connected to the blue wire) going? Yellow wire was probably original and went where single black wire is now. Not sure, for a guy used to working on dirt bikes- I'm finding it very difficult to reach many of the bolt and trace wires. This ones goes into a sheath then through the firewall and disappears.

The jumper in the starter lead is a band-aid. Remove it and splice the wires together with a linesman splice and heat shrink for a permanent fix. I pulled the thick yellow wires out and connected them together- no change

Then, starting at the starter, hook a spade connector on the end of a 12G wire to make a jumper. Hook the connector to the starter, and touch the other end to the positive battery post. The car should crank. It did!

Move to the relay board, and hook the jumper to one of the rear two pins on the 4 pin connector on the left rear of the relay board. Again the car should crank when you touch the wire to the positive battery post. It didn't crank, but I did see a few small sparks when making the connection.

If all that works, replace the ignition switch. They are notorious for breaking and failing. I already did that, no change.



HOWEVER: I did manage to find a random fuse holder near the starter on the engine side of the firewall, and lo and behold, the inserted 15 amp fuse was blown. I replaced the fuse and whala! The car cranks now!

I wish I would have found the $1.99 fuse before I replaced the starter (with the wrong starter and threw my correct core away, and suffered through replacing the starter switch.

I have no idea what the fuse is for, other than to interrupt power to the starter when blown. There is an electric fuel pump and a radio that seem to be hooked directly to the battery- maybe it has something to do with that?

Thanks for everyone's help! Time to go spend some more money!Attached Image Attached Image
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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 08:46 PM
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THIS IS THE WRONG STARTER AMAZON SOLD ME!!!!

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aaronc70
post May 27 2020, 08:48 PM
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Incidentally, I found this hose disconnected. My guess is it is a breather hose that should be connected to the airbox. Is that correct? What would be the symptoms of it not being connected?
When my car does run, it runs fine until the engine heats up; then runs like crap at mid to high RPM's, like a fuel injector is not putting enough fuel in or something.Attached Image
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Coondog
post May 27 2020, 09:53 PM
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Hope you get your 914 fixed. I am not a expert but maybe this list will help.

# Backdate Bumpers

# Replace Riviera rims with Fuck rims

# Delete you cell phone tower antenna

# Dump 1.8 motor for a 3.2

Hope this helps, it sure made my 75 run better............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)
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Mark Henry
post May 28 2020, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE(aaronc70 @ May 27 2020, 10:46 PM) *

THIS IS THE WRONG STARTER AMAZON SOLD ME!!!!

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That's a VW type 1 (aircooled beetle, early bus, T3, etc.) starter.

It looks like you have a very poorly installed hot start relay fix. You can read more about the Ford hot start fix in the link below in my signature, but I suspect you have a Bosch horn relay instead of the Ford solenoid.

At any rate your wiring looks like a PO nightmare and should be sorted.
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aaronc70
post May 28 2020, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE(Coondog @ May 27 2020, 11:53 PM) *

Hope you get your 914 fixed. I am not a expert but maybe this list will help.

# Backdate Bumpers ehh, I'm OK with the bumpers, didn't realize they were not correct for the years.

# Replace Riviera rims with Fuck rims I kinda like my rims, but I like the fuches too

# Delete you cell phone tower antenna radio doesn't pick up crap without it, maybe if I update the radio I can return to a normal sized one.

# Dump 1.8 motor for a 3.2 Definitely on the list, 6-cylinders seem to be pretty hard to find for less than $10K these days!

Hope this helps, it sure made my 75 run better............ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

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aaronc70
post May 28 2020, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 28 2020, 07:53 AM) *

QUOTE(aaronc70 @ May 27 2020, 10:46 PM) *

THIS IS THE WRONG STARTER AMAZON SOLD ME!!!!

Attached Image



That's a VW type 1 (aircooled beetle, early bus, T3, etc.) starter.

It looks like you have a very poorly installed hot start relay fix. You can read more about the Ford hot start fix in the link below in my signature, but I suspect you have a Bosch horn relay instead of the Ford solenoid.

At any rate your wiring looks like a PO nightmare and should be sorted.



OK, thanks for ID'ing that starter, I'll write a note in the Amazon listing to hopefully save other 914 owners the trouble.
I'll read into the hot start fix when I have some time. after owning the car for 5+ years, this is the first trouble it's given me.
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ClayPerrine
post May 28 2020, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE(aaronc70 @ May 27 2020, 09:48 PM) *

Incidentally, I found this hose disconnected. My guess is it is a breather hose that should be connected to the airbox. Is that correct? What would be the symptoms of it not being connected?
When my car does run, it runs fine until the engine heats up; then runs like crap at mid to high RPM's, like a fuel injector is not putting enough fuel in or something.Attached Image


From the picture, that hose goes down to the aux air regulator. So it needs to be connected to the top hole in the big hose between the air flow meter and the throttle body. If you hook it directly to the air cleaner, the car won't run because it will bypass too much air around the air flow meter.

Clay
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aaronc70
post Jun 1 2020, 07:38 PM
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OK, thanks a lot, I reconnected the tube into the right place (not the air flow meter as I originally guessed)

Well the new Bosch starter from AutoAtlanta came in today. I finally got it put in after dropping the nut about five times and it turns over, but it seems to turn over slower than the last correct starter that was in the car since I purchased it in 2013. The car would not light off and I've had no issues with that in the past. I even tried a little carb cleaner in the airfilter and it wouldn't hit a lick.

I'm going to charge the battery overnight with hopes it spins faster.

There was a this note in the new starter: Could this be my issue? Any other ideas?
Attached File  Bosch_starter_note_0001.pdf ( 173.97k ) Number of downloads: 13
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aaronc70
post Jun 1 2020, 07:48 PM
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Well, after watching part of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0if07FKGybg I think this relay is already installed on my car- reference my 15 amp fuse issue that started this whole thing. The parts and wires look very similar.
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Mark Henry
post Jun 2 2020, 07:42 AM
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I personally have no use for bosch horn relay. but I still think you have a wiring and/or ground issue.
Take a wire and hook it direct to the starter quick connect, then the other end touch the battery +, if it's still slow you have a ground issue, bad battery + cable, dirty terminals, etc.
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aaronc70
post Jun 2 2020, 07:36 PM
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well,after charging the battery for 24 hours, I attempted another start, and although the starter did spin faster, it still would not light off. I noticed a loose wire in the plethora of red wires going to my positive battery terminal and fastened it in. I attempted another start and wallah! The car started up finally!
I didn't trace the wires down yet but something tells me it is the WR1 relay kit installed by the previous owner.

Thanks for everyone's help with getting to the bottom of this!

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