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> 22 years later, How to restart after my own garage find. '73 1.7
914CLE
post Oct 2 2019, 03:46 PM
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So after 22 years in my garage, I can finally get around to restarting. At this point, drained the gas, replaced all fuel line hoses and most vacuum lines, plugs look good, spark looks good, fuel is spraying from all injectors. Adjusted lifters. Car won't start. Any suggestions as to trouble shoot? I've ohm'd out coil (it's fine), voltage to coil is 10V (I think it's enough) as it main supply sparks, all cylinders has sparks. Turns over, no firing. Changed points to Petronix II. Still nothing even with staring fluid ( I would think if it was fuel delivery, it would at least fire for a few seconds with starting fluid).

It ran before I garaged it.

Any suggestions, check lists to follow??

Do I need to hook up air filter and vacuum lines to get it to even start at a rough idle?

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Superhawk996
post Oct 2 2019, 06:17 PM
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10V to coil is not sufficient unless that 10V was measured during cranking. When cranking, voltage will drop. If you have 10V with just the ignition on, it will be substantially less when cranking causing a weak or non existent spark. 2 volts of voltage drop between battery and coil is pretty high. Is battery fully charged and cranking swiftly or just slow cranking?

Be sure you have the spark plug wires routed correctly to match firing order.

You mention you have spark on all cylinders but is it a strong blue spark or just faint,weak, and yellowish? Likewise you mention you have injectors spraying but are they spraying a mist or just dribbling?

After you've tried cranking - are the plugs wet?

Also have you checked compression?

If engine has spark, fuel and compression occurring in the proper sequence, it will run. You're missing one of the three.

Lack of air filter wouldn't cause issues. However, I'm not sure what vacuum lines you've not connected. If they directly feed to the throttle body, or the plenum plug them to prevent mixture from being lean. The fact that starting fluid doesn't at least cough sounds like you're not getting spark when cranking.
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infraredcalvin
post Oct 2 2019, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 05:17 PM) *
The fact that starting fluid doesn't at least cough sounds like you're not getting spark when cranking.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
Static timed? Was distributor removed, sure it’s clocked accurately?
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dr914@autoatlanta.com
post Oct 3 2019, 07:52 AM
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before the pertronix, install points and condenser, set the dwell to 50 and statically set the timing. Check the plug for a spark, then remove the air cleaner and while cranking spray the starting fluid into the throttle body (hope that you have previously put marvel mystery oil into the cylinders overnight then turned over to circulate and also changed the oil and cleaned out the strainer)

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 2 2019, 02:46 PM) *

So after 22 years in my garage, I can finally get around to restarting. At this point, drained the gas, replaced all fuel line hoses and most vacuum lines, plugs look good, spark looks good, fuel is spraying from all injectors. Adjusted lifters. Car won't start. Any suggestions as to trouble shoot? I've ohm'd out coil (it's fine), voltage to coil is 10V (I think it's enough) as it main supply sparks, all cylinders has sparks. Turns over, no firing. Changed points to Petronix II. Still nothing even with staring fluid ( I would think if it was fuel delivery, it would at least fire for a few seconds with starting fluid).

It ran before I garaged it.

Any suggestions, check lists to follow??

Do I need to hook up air filter and vacuum lines to get it to even start at a rough idle?

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914CLE
post Oct 3 2019, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 08:17 PM) *

10V to coil is not sufficient unless that 10V was measured during cranking. When cranking, voltage will drop. If you have 10V with just the ignition on, it will be substantially less when cranking causing a weak or non existent spark. 2 volts of voltage drop between battery and coil is pretty high. Is battery fully charged and cranking swiftly or just slow cranking?

I have 10V with the ignition on, what could be issue with weak coil voltage?

Be sure you have the spark plug wires routed correctly to match firing order. They are

You mention you have spark on all cylinders but is it a strong blue spark or just faint,weak, and yellowish? It seems to be strong and blue.

Likewise you mention you have injectors spraying but are they spraying a mist or just dribbling? I took 1&4 out and pointed upwards and cranked and a fine V mist.

After you've tried cranking - are the plugs wet? Black and wet.

Also have you checked compression? I check #1 so far and had just over 100, I'm going to check the rest this week, but need to get the grommet in my socket so I don't lose the plugs again under the tin...

If engine has spark, fuel and compression occurring in the proper sequence, it will run. You're missing one of the three.

Lack of air filter wouldn't cause issues. However, I'm not sure what vacuum lines you've not connected. If they directly feed to the throttle body, or the plenum plug them to prevent mixture from being lean. The fact that starting fluid doesn't at least cough sounds like you're not getting spark when cranking. That's what I'm thinking, I ordered a new coil, what provides voltage to the coil, a relay or through a relay in the ignition switch, bad ground, bad + lead?

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914CLE
post Oct 3 2019, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Oct 3 2019, 09:52 AM) *

before the pertronix, install points and condenser, set the dwell to 50 and statically set the timing. Check the plug for a spark, then remove the air cleaner and while cranking spray the starting fluid into the throttle body (hope that you have previously put marvel mystery oil into the cylinders overnight then turned over to circulate and also changed the oil and cleaned out the strainer)

Working on this right now before I go any further.

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 2 2019, 02:46 PM) *

So after 22 years in my garage, I can finally get around to restarting. At this point, drained the gas, replaced all fuel line hoses and most vacuum lines, plugs look good, spark looks good, fuel is spraying from all injectors. Adjusted lifters. Car won't start. Any suggestions as to trouble shoot? I've ohm'd out coil (it's fine), voltage to coil is 10V (I think it's enough) as it main supply sparks, all cylinders has sparks. Turns over, no firing. Changed points to Petronix II. Still nothing even with staring fluid ( I would think if it was fuel delivery, it would at least fire for a few seconds with starting fluid).

It ran before I garaged it.

Any suggestions, check lists to follow??

Do I need to hook up air filter and vacuum lines to get it to even start at a rough idle?


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cuddy_k
post Oct 3 2019, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 3 2019, 01:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 08:17 PM) *

I'm going to check the rest this week, but need to get the grommet in my socket so I don't lose the plugs again under the tin...



Loosen the spark plugs, then push a short length of fuel hose over the top of the spark plug. Twist the hose/plug and it will come free without falling.
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ClayPerrine
post Oct 3 2019, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE(cuddy_k @ Oct 3 2019, 01:30 PM) *

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 3 2019, 01:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 08:17 PM) *

I'm going to check the rest this week, but need to get the grommet in my socket so I don't lose the plugs again under the tin...



Loosen the spark plugs, then push a short length of fuel hose over the top of the spark plug. Twist the hose/plug and it will come free without falling.


Or use an old spark plug wire boot. They work great.
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Superhawk996
post Oct 3 2019, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 3 2019, 02:14 PM) *


I have 10V with the ignition on, what could be issue with weak coil voltage?

Unplug positive 12v feed to the coil. If it is 10v with ignition ON and disconnected from the coil, you have high resistance somewhere in the 12v+ wire. Superhawk 996


After you've tried cranking - are the plugs wet? Black and wet.

Black and wet is not good. A sign of rich and/or flooding. Did you start with new plugs? If not, start with new plugs. If the new plugs turned black but you never heard firing that is very odd. Black is unburned carbon deposits that can only occur if your getting some sort of combustion. Black carbon is a conductor especially if wet. New plugs before you try more ! Superhawk996

Per Doc’s suggestion make sure static timing is set.

Finish compression checks.
Superhawk996



Sorry to have edited your quote. Did it on my phone initially and it got jacked up.
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Rand
post Oct 3 2019, 05:17 PM
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All this talk about static timing. When would it have changed? The mouse did it.
Please do basic spark and fuel checks first and make sure they are in spec. What color is the spark? Are you using fresh fuel? The old turpentine isn't so good anymore.

Timing is the last thing that should be on your mind right now, unless you fuched with it.

Please check the spark quality. And tell how you did it.
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JOEPROPER
post Oct 3 2019, 05:46 PM
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Spark, fuel and compression are the key ingredients. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with above, timing is probably not your problem unless you messed with it.
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Superhawk996
post Oct 3 2019, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE(JOEPROPER @ Oct 3 2019, 07:46 PM) *

Spark, fuel and compression are the key ingredients. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with above, timing is probably not your problem unless you messed with it.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

However . . .


Initial post mentioned Pertronix so I suspect it was messed with.
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rgalla9146
post Oct 4 2019, 08:34 AM
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Did you switch from points to pertronix before attempting to start ?
Did you removed the dizzy to do that ?
Go back to points and start from TDC in proper sequence.
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Jacob
post Oct 4 2019, 01:12 PM
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I cannot give you a definitive answer, just questions.


Did you have compression?


Did the valves move when you did the adjustment? They could be stuck.


Intake clear? No mouse nest, etc.?
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ClayPerrine
post Oct 4 2019, 02:27 PM
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I use the FAST method.

F = Fuel
A = Air (compression)
S = Spark
T = Timing.

Here is how I would do it....



1. Run a compression test on each cylinder. If the compression is low on any cylinder, I would consider a teardown to rebuild.

2. Verify the spark. Simplest method is to pull the distributor out and put in a set of points and a condenser. Make sure the points are gapped right. Then reinstall the distributor.

3. Verify the timing is correct. Turn the engine with the starter and thumb check the #1 cylinder. When it spits air from compression, manually turn the engine until the TDC mark is aligned with the notch in the fan housing. Then set the distributor rotor to point at the little line on the distributor housing. That is the #1 mark for the distributor. Install the plug wires and new plugs. Right side wires are connected front distributor tower to front plug, rear distributor tower to rear plug. The ones on the left connect front distributor tower to rear plug, rear distributor tower to front plug. The left plug wires should cross.

4. Open the throttle body and spray some carb cleaner in there. Then try to start the engine. If the ignition is working, the car should fire and die at this point. If you get a backfire after that, you have a problem with either the distributor drive gear in the engine or you put a plug wire on wrong. I would bet on the plug wire.

5. Now that you know the ignition works, concentrate on the FI. Verify the fuel pump cycles when you turn the key on. Check the fuel pressure. In a quiet garage, turn the key on and slowly open the throttle with your hand and listen for the injectors to click (that is the D-Jet "accelerator pump" function). Make sure all the ground leads are hooked up and not broken. Check the CHT wiring and the wiring to the Manifold pressure sensor.

If all that is correct, it should run.

Clay
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914CLE
post Oct 8 2019, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE(cuddy_k @ Oct 3 2019, 02:30 PM) *

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 3 2019, 01:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 08:17 PM) *

I'm going to check the rest this week, but need to get the grommet in my socket so I don't lose the plugs again under the tin...



Loosen the spark plugs, then push a short length of fuel hose over the top of the spark plug. Twist the hose/plug and it will come free without falling.


great suggestion, found the grommet for my socket, much easier, but I like the hose idea, I'll use that next time after I lose the grommet...
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914CLE
post Oct 8 2019, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE(cuddy_k @ Oct 3 2019, 02:30 PM) *

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 3 2019, 01:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 2 2019, 08:17 PM) *

I'm going to check the rest this week, but need to get the grommet in my socket so I don't lose the plugs again under the tin...



Loosen the spark plugs, then push a short length of fuel hose over the top of the spark plug. Twist the hose/plug and it will come free without falling.


great suggestion, found the grommet for my socket, much easier, but I like the hose idea, I'll use that next time after I lose the grommet...
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914CLE
post Oct 8 2019, 04:30 PM
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So put new points back in along with cap, rotor, wires, TDC was set with static timing and after a good helping of mystery oil, it started right up...however....it seems that #4 is not firing, checked ompression and it's at about 90 and after I put in mystery oil it goes to 110 or so...ring rebuild time???

After running it for several minutes and went to restart, spark disappears, I check with a timing light attached to the wire and nothing. Some cylinders have a spark and others don't so it doesn't restart.

When I remove the plug and connect the end to engine ground, there's a spark and the timing light is firing. I put the plug back in and no light from the timing light.

Is there something with the ground?

Is it possible that the plugs are bad, they are old but only have 200 miles on them at most. I"m going to change them out.

Plugs came out black.

I am stumped, it's like I lose ground when I put the plugs back in and the wires cannot conduct the spark.



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VaccaRabite
post Oct 8 2019, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

So put new points back in along with cap, rotor, wires, TDC was set with static timing and after a good helping of mystery oil, it started right up...however....it seems that #4 is not firing, checked ompression and it's at about 90 and after I put in mystery oil it goes to 110 or so...ring rebuild time???


Nah, its tired but its fine. That is sufficient compression to have the engine running and the car driving. But its also time to start thinking about that top end rebuild. Remember that compression will go up when the engine is hot too (that's why you want your engine hot for a compression check).

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

After running it for several minutes and went to restart, spark disappears, I check with a timing light attached to the wire and nothing. Some cylinders have a spark and others don't so it doesn't restart.

When I remove the plug and connect the end to engine ground, there's a spark and the timing light is firing. I put the plug back in and no light from the timing light.

Grounds need to be checked. Probably corroded. But thats not your issue.

Replace the plug wires. Could be the 22 year old rubber insulation is cracked and the spark is jumping from the plug wire to the tins or head before it gets to the plugs. Pretty common. This is probably your issue. Been there done that.

Replace the plugs (see below). These are not really your issue but fresh is good.
Clean the plug threads in the head, especially if you put a dab of antiseize on the plugs.

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

Is it possible that the plugs are bad, they are old but only have 200 miles on them at most. I"m going to change them out.

Plugs came out black.


Change the plugs, but your issue there is that your engine (and the plugs) are not getting hot enough to go into self cleaning mode. Once the engine is running, the wet black plugs will go away, but cold plugs from idling is normal.


Zach
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914CLE
post Oct 8 2019, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE(VaccaRabite @ Oct 8 2019, 08:46 PM) *

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

So put new points back in along with cap, rotor, wires, TDC was set with static timing and after a good helping of mystery oil, it started right up...however....it seems that #4 is not firing, checked ompression and it's at about 90 and after I put in mystery oil it goes to 110 or so...ring rebuild time???


Nah, its tired but its fine. That is sufficient compression to have the engine running and the car driving. But its also time to start thinking about that top end rebuild. Remember that compression will go up when the engine is hot too (that's why you want your engine hot for a compression check).


Ok, I checked when cold so glad it will go up from there, when it was running, I was getting black smoke and black spit from tail pipe, too rich? How do I adjust?

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

After running it for several minutes and went to restart, spark disappears, I check with a timing light attached to the wire and nothing. Some cylinders have a spark and others don't so it doesn't restart.

When I remove the plug and connect the end to engine ground, there's a spark and the timing light is firing. I put the plug back in and no light from the timing light.

Grounds need to be checked. Probably corroded. But thats not your issue.

I checked the transmission ground strap and it's still connected and braid looks good, I cleaned and remounted and cleaned the connector and applied conductive grease.

Replace the plug wires. Could be the 22 year old rubber insulation is cracked and the spark is jumping from the plug wire to the tins or head before it gets to the plugs. Pretty common. This is probably your issue. Been there done that.

I just swapped out the wires with new wires, it started up and then when I went back to restart after it sat for a few minutes, it wouldn't restart and I couldn't detect spark on 1 and 3 cylinders using a timing light, I checked the points and they are sparking for each lobe so I know that wires should be getting the spark.

Replace the plugs (see below). These are not really your issue but fresh is good.
Clean the plug threads in the head, especially if you put a dab of antiseize on the plugs.

QUOTE(914CLE @ Oct 8 2019, 06:30 PM) *

Is it possible that the plugs are bad, they are old but only have 200 miles on them at most. I"m going to change them out.

Plugs came out black.


Change the plugs, but your issue there is that your engine (and the plugs) are not getting hot enough to go into self cleaning mode. Once the engine is running, the wet black plugs will go away, but cold plugs from idling is normal.

So I when I had it running, I ran it for about 5 minutes and then shut it off, then that is when it wouldn't restart, when I pulled the plug and checked for spark I can see a spark, and the light comes on on the timing light for each wire, but when I put the plugs back into cylinders, timing light doesn't flash on two cylinders.

Could there be that much corrosion on threads of head that it's not grounding to make a full circuit, I can't think of anything else as I didn't think it was the spark plugs because when I pull them out and ground the case and turn it over, it sparks...


Zach

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