I had a dream to install a 6, that was a few years back and I even got a 2,2T motor but the project didn't get off the ground, anyway as I have run out of things to do I thought I might resurrect the idea.
According to the PO the motor came out of a running car and I want to make sure that it runs before I commit to installing it.
What do I need to do to get it running?
I do not have a spare gearbox for the starter or an oil tank is there an easy way to fire it up without (or using substitutes for) these parts and what about the electrics, there is a coil but I think I need more than that?
Any help much appreciated as I know nothing about these engines.
PS:
It looks like the motor has been opened up at some time there is a lot of sealer on the case seam behind the flywheel, do you think its been opened?
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Full Version: I had a dream
Definitely been opened. Looks like wrong sealant.
To run the motor out of a car you will need:
1. Oil tank and lines. You can use a 911 tank. They are easier and cheaper to find.
2. CD Box for ignition.
3. Flywheel, pressure plate and ring gear. The ring gear mounts to the pressure plate on the later 911 engines.
4. Transmission... or transmission bell housing (to mount the starter)
5. Tach, oil pressure and temp gauges.
6. Fuel pump and tank. You can use a gas can for the tank.
7. A stand to hold the engine and mount the gauges.
8. A battery and cables.
You will also need to wire up the ignition and the fuel pump to a switch to turn off the power, and the wires for the tach, oil pressure and oil temp gauges. You will need a starter button to start the motor.
All of this can be done. But it will take as almost as long and cost almost as much as installing it in your car. And by putting it in the car, you have it ready to drive if it is good, and you have a converted car to put another motor in if it is not.
Good luck!
Clay
1. Oil tank and lines. You can use a 911 tank. They are easier and cheaper to find.
2. CD Box for ignition.
3. Flywheel, pressure plate and ring gear. The ring gear mounts to the pressure plate on the later 911 engines.
4. Transmission... or transmission bell housing (to mount the starter)
5. Tach, oil pressure and temp gauges.
6. Fuel pump and tank. You can use a gas can for the tank.
7. A stand to hold the engine and mount the gauges.
8. A battery and cables.
You will also need to wire up the ignition and the fuel pump to a switch to turn off the power, and the wires for the tach, oil pressure and oil temp gauges. You will need a starter button to start the motor.
All of this can be done. But it will take as almost as long and cost almost as much as installing it in your car. And by putting it in the car, you have it ready to drive if it is good, and you have a converted car to put another motor in if it is not.
Good luck!
Clay
Set valves
Perform a leak down
Rebuild carbs
If all check out, install and get it running in the car.
Perform a leak down
Rebuild carbs
If all check out, install and get it running in the car.
The case half sealant looks like permatex aviation sealant, I stopped using it mid-90's, so the rebuild is likely 25+ years old.
Test running I would get an early 911/914-6 flywheel* and mount it to a 914 tranny and use some blocks to get it off the ground. If it turns freely I might hook up a tank and oil. pull the plugs and try to do a compression test. If all the cylinders pumped a reasonable pressure (doesn't have to be perfect at this point) then I'd continue on to get it ready to fire.
Clay and Calvin covered the things needed to do the rest of the deed.
*You likely can use the stock 911 flywheel and starter ring assembly for testing because a 2.2 would have used a 901 (family) transmission, for a 914 trans just leave the release bearing out for testing. For use in a 914 you would need a early /6 flywheel and stock clutch kit (same as a /4) or the 911 flywheel and an adaptor ring assembly from KEP. There is a way to use a 911 clutch, but I personally wouldn't go this route.
Test running I would get an early 911/914-6 flywheel* and mount it to a 914 tranny and use some blocks to get it off the ground. If it turns freely I might hook up a tank and oil. pull the plugs and try to do a compression test. If all the cylinders pumped a reasonable pressure (doesn't have to be perfect at this point) then I'd continue on to get it ready to fire.
Clay and Calvin covered the things needed to do the rest of the deed.
*You likely can use the stock 911 flywheel and starter ring assembly for testing because a 2.2 would have used a 901 (family) transmission, for a 914 trans just leave the release bearing out for testing. For use in a 914 you would need a early /6 flywheel and stock clutch kit (same as a /4) or the 911 flywheel and an adaptor ring assembly from KEP. There is a way to use a 911 clutch, but I personally wouldn't go this route.
Agree with Mark Henrys guidance and Clays list. Definitely #1 priority: Establish that there is reasonable compression before taking things too far. These engines - after being run then stored for a long period - can have issues with valve seating being compromised. The Dempsey book touches on this, but the way it has been explained to me is as follows:
Freshly rebuilt engine is fired up and runs, carbon deposits start forming immediately on head, piston crown. Engine is stored, humidity and temperature cycles loosen the deposits over time and they fall down (because, gravity) and the exhaust valves are on the lowest point of the bore... so when the engine is exhumed from storage, turned over, fired up, etc., all those flakes of carbon seek exit through the exhaust port and CAN get stuck in the valve seat and compromise / damage the seal.
This is less likely to occur if the engine was only run for a quick check post rebuild - minimal carbon deposits - which may be the case. BUT, if compression numbers look low, you're at least in for a top end rebuild, valve seats / guides, etc.
- Tony
PS. On a positive note, its worth pursuing that -6 dream; these engines are great for -6 conversions; the 2.2 breathes much better than a 2.0 and doesn't have the thermal and load stress of a 2.7. I have one in my car
Freshly rebuilt engine is fired up and runs, carbon deposits start forming immediately on head, piston crown. Engine is stored, humidity and temperature cycles loosen the deposits over time and they fall down (because, gravity) and the exhaust valves are on the lowest point of the bore... so when the engine is exhumed from storage, turned over, fired up, etc., all those flakes of carbon seek exit through the exhaust port and CAN get stuck in the valve seat and compromise / damage the seal.
This is less likely to occur if the engine was only run for a quick check post rebuild - minimal carbon deposits - which may be the case. BUT, if compression numbers look low, you're at least in for a top end rebuild, valve seats / guides, etc.
- Tony
PS. On a positive note, its worth pursuing that -6 dream; these engines are great for -6 conversions; the 2.2 breathes much better than a 2.0 and doesn't have the thermal and load stress of a 2.7. I have one in my car
I have a somewhat dumb but relevant question....
Why so many people recommend a compression test rather than a leak down at this point?
A leak down requires much less effort because the engine is out on the floor (or stand), no trans or starter, etc. it also gives you much better indication of piston ring, intake / exhaust valve condition as you can hear and test where leakage may be occurring. While it requires a compressor and a specialized tool, most already have a compressor, and the tool can be rented or loaned from your local flaps.
I was always taught that a compression test is easier to perform when the engine is installed and “running”, but it just gives you a general sense that something is wrong (rings, head seal, valves).
So here’s the dumb question, what does a compression test tell you differently than a leak down?
This is definitely not a knock to the people I consider experts who have answered above, just looking to learn....
Why so many people recommend a compression test rather than a leak down at this point?
A leak down requires much less effort because the engine is out on the floor (or stand), no trans or starter, etc. it also gives you much better indication of piston ring, intake / exhaust valve condition as you can hear and test where leakage may be occurring. While it requires a compressor and a specialized tool, most already have a compressor, and the tool can be rented or loaned from your local flaps.
I was always taught that a compression test is easier to perform when the engine is installed and “running”, but it just gives you a general sense that something is wrong (rings, head seal, valves).
So here’s the dumb question, what does a compression test tell you differently than a leak down?
This is definitely not a knock to the people I consider experts who have answered above, just looking to learn....
Numbers are useless at this point, all I'd be looking for is that it doesn't have a dead cylinder. Most peeps have a simple compression tester, if you have a leak down tester great!
As far as borrowing anything from a FLAPS for me that's 2 one hour round trips so at least 2.5 hours wasted, sometimes I forget that other members might be a bit closer to town.
As far as borrowing anything from a FLAPS for me that's 2 one hour round trips so at least 2.5 hours wasted, sometimes I forget that other members might be a bit closer to town.
Many thanks to all members for the good advice, it is very much appreciated.
I bought an early flywheel a few years ago, It was advertised as a 65-69, however I cannot see any TDC marks, I thought that all the early flywheels had a TDC mark? There is also no part number stamp.
As I know near to nothing I am hoping that a member will be able to see if this is indeed an early flywheel and suitable for use with the 914 gearbox.
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I bought an early flywheel a few years ago, It was advertised as a 65-69, however I cannot see any TDC marks, I thought that all the early flywheels had a TDC mark? There is also no part number stamp.
As I know near to nothing I am hoping that a member will be able to see if this is indeed an early flywheel and suitable for use with the 914 gearbox.
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Yes that works, bolt it up.
IIRC the 914 ones were marked but not 911, they are the same.
IIRC the 914 ones were marked but not 911, they are the same.
RE: Flywheel - the asymmetric bolt pattern means it will only match all holes in one position - then you can get TDC from the front crank pulley. I bought an aftermarket flywheel with no markings, but duplicated the crank pulley marks (in color!) such that they are visible when mated to the 901 transmission. Oh, and don't tighten the flywheel bolts fully until final assembly - as they're only supposed to be single use...
RE: compression vs. leak test; basically, whatever approach is easiest to get you to confidence that (as Mark Henry points out) that you have some hope of all cylinders holding some level of compression.
- Tony
RE: compression vs. leak test; basically, whatever approach is easiest to get you to confidence that (as Mark Henry points out) that you have some hope of all cylinders holding some level of compression.
- Tony
Thanks for the responses, I was just in a similar situation with my new to me track car. It sat for 6+ years. I went with leak down but was afraid I was missing something!
I have started to check over the 911T engine before installing.
As I have leak down testing equipment I decided to do a quick test on cylinders 1 and 2.
Unfortunately the results were worse than terrible, it looks like both of the intake valves on C1 & C2 are leaking a lot.
Where does this leave me and is my dream about to become an expensive nightmare?
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As I have leak down testing equipment I decided to do a quick test on cylinders 1 and 2.
Unfortunately the results were worse than terrible, it looks like both of the intake valves on C1 & C2 are leaking a lot.
Where does this leave me and is my dream about to become an expensive nightmare?
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QUOTE(DavidSweden @ May 16 2021, 09:52 AM) 
Unfortunately the results were worse than terrible, it looks like both of the intake valves on C1 & C2 are leaking a lot.
Where does this leave me and is my dream about to become an expensive nightmare?
Or, well on your way to building one of Porsche's all-time great engines: a 2.2S…
This said as someone who agreed to use Solex cams in a 2.2 but wishes he'd gone with S cams for the sparkle. In terms of driving joy, the 2.2S is up there with things like the CGT, 917, and various GT3s. MFI and short gears only make it better…
Do a top end on the engine. Not crazy expensive and the dream will live on. 
I agree with Pete and Mark. Get the heads done, get a set of 2.2S pistons and cylinders, you can slide new rod bearings in while you have it apart without splitting the case, and a set of S or mod S cams and you will not stop smiling. It is not that hard, tedious but not that hard.
Charlie
Charlie
The engine pictured went from
1. 137 to 170
2. 0 to 170
3. 160 to 170
4. 25 to 160
5. 155 to 165
6. 45 to 170
Therapy included: 1. oil changes x3
2. valve adjustments x 3
3. spraying water into throats of carbs with engine running !
( old hotrodders trick for long dormant engines )
This otherwise sound engine had been dormant for thirty seven years
just sayin'
And I do agree there are few things in life as fun as a 2.2 S !
1. 137 to 170
2. 0 to 170
3. 160 to 170
4. 25 to 160
5. 155 to 165
6. 45 to 170
Therapy included: 1. oil changes x3
2. valve adjustments x 3
3. spraying water into throats of carbs with engine running !
( old hotrodders trick for long dormant engines )
This otherwise sound engine had been dormant for thirty seven years
just sayin'
And I do agree there are few things in life as fun as a 2.2 S !
Listen to Rory. Doesn’t hurt to try.
QUOTE(mepstein @ May 16 2021, 02:39 PM)
Listen to Rory. Doesn’t hurt to try.
My 2.2t engine started like that after sitting 18yrs ,all the usual leaks did the following,
resealed chain cases after fitting chain savers,
checked chain ramps @ the same time as well as chain tension,
resealed triangle of leaks and replaced thermostat "o"ring,
cleaned all the oil off the barrels and case till pristine ,
resurface intake and exhaust valve cover,they all warped !!,
inspected cam lobes and rocker shaft position,
replaced front pulley and rear crank seals,
new seals for oil cooler after pressure test then full clean,
replaced one cam oil feed line other one was new ?,why would someone only replace one side ?,
reset valves twice to same result and cleaned out exhaust ports of carbon when on TDC,
replaced 7 exhaust studs,rest were good,
rebuilt/ upgraded carbs with parts from Italy,
replaced worn carb throttle linkages joints and bushes,
had altenator rebuilt and fitted new ground strap to case,
fitted heatexchanger air hose blanks to fan cylinder cooling cover as I was running headers.
I may have missed some things but you will get the idea,I felt I was a step ahead as my engine showed evidence of a top overhaul which was a nice find.
Some stuff I picked up from pics posted ;
that flywheel isn't great and will need a full resurface to spec,the starter ring gear is very worn also,may be cheaper to find a better one ?,replacement ring gears are expensive after all.
The crank seal looks like a VR brand one ? trust me they are a bad fit and will leak,best choose is Kaco or Elring they just fit better,as me how I know ?.
An out of car test run is a huge undertaking as mentioned but that's up to you of course.
Don't place too much importance on cold test compression test unless you know otherwise,my motor started straight up and blew carbon crap and oil smoke then finally settled to smooth nice running engine.
Good luck.
resealed chain cases after fitting chain savers,
checked chain ramps @ the same time as well as chain tension,
resealed triangle of leaks and replaced thermostat "o"ring,
cleaned all the oil off the barrels and case till pristine ,
resurface intake and exhaust valve cover,they all warped !!,
inspected cam lobes and rocker shaft position,
replaced front pulley and rear crank seals,
new seals for oil cooler after pressure test then full clean,
replaced one cam oil feed line other one was new ?,why would someone only replace one side ?,
reset valves twice to same result and cleaned out exhaust ports of carbon when on TDC,
replaced 7 exhaust studs,rest were good,
rebuilt/ upgraded carbs with parts from Italy,
replaced worn carb throttle linkages joints and bushes,
had altenator rebuilt and fitted new ground strap to case,
fitted heatexchanger air hose blanks to fan cylinder cooling cover as I was running headers.
I may have missed some things but you will get the idea,I felt I was a step ahead as my engine showed evidence of a top overhaul which was a nice find.
Some stuff I picked up from pics posted ;
that flywheel isn't great and will need a full resurface to spec,the starter ring gear is very worn also,may be cheaper to find a better one ?,replacement ring gears are expensive after all.
The crank seal looks like a VR brand one ? trust me they are a bad fit and will leak,best choose is Kaco or Elring they just fit better,as me how I know ?.
An out of car test run is a huge undertaking as mentioned but that's up to you of course.
Don't place too much importance on cold test compression test unless you know otherwise,my motor started straight up and blew carbon crap and oil smoke then finally settled to smooth nice running engine.
Good luck.
There are some 2.2T heads in the classifieds right now. Selling for half of what head work cost me on mine.
Thanks for sharing all the good advice/knowledge
I did not want to put the engine in the car and end up with a major problem and as I enjoy taking things apart....... did I make the right decision and what do these picture tell the initiated?
Heads 1 to 3 from left to right
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I did not want to put the engine in the car and end up with a major problem and as I enjoy taking things apart....... did I make the right decision and what do these picture tell the initiated?
Heads 1 to 3 from left to right
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Looks like it needed some new seals anyway
I think you did the right thing FWIW. Lots of carbon and unknown valve seat condition...
I agree with @mepstein - your lowest cost / best value alternative is a top end overhaul, clean & inspect cylinders and pistons, new rings; and, don't split the crankcase. If you do, dollar bills get sucked in....
- Tony
I agree with @mepstein - your lowest cost / best value alternative is a top end overhaul, clean & inspect cylinders and pistons, new rings; and, don't split the crankcase. If you do, dollar bills get sucked in....
- Tony
QUOTE(Retroracer @ May 24 2021, 03:05 PM)
I think you did the right thing FWIW. Lots of carbon and unknown valve seat condition...
I agree with @mepstein - your lowest cost / best value alternative is a top end overhaul, clean & inspect cylinders and pistons, new rings; and, don't split the crankcase. If you do, dollar bills get sucked in....
- Tony
Listen to Rory over me. He is an actual Porsche tech. I'm a beginner.
After the problems I discovered with the heads, I could not stop myself splitting the case and I found more problems.
The thrust bearing at the flywheel end was toast, big pieces missing, on the positive side there does not appear to be any damage to the case or crank. What would cause this type of bearing failure?
What was a bit worse was one that the number 6 bearing had rotated in the case, the oil hole in the bearing shell was full with what looked like metal (molten from the bearing?) and both bearing tags have cut into the case, there is also a round metal deposit on the bearing seat in the case (deposited through the oil hole in the bearing shell) this is probably more molten bearing metal?
Can anyone tell me how serious this damage is?
Thanks in advance.
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The thrust bearing at the flywheel end was toast, big pieces missing, on the positive side there does not appear to be any damage to the case or crank. What would cause this type of bearing failure?
What was a bit worse was one that the number 6 bearing had rotated in the case, the oil hole in the bearing shell was full with what looked like metal (molten from the bearing?) and both bearing tags have cut into the case, there is also a round metal deposit on the bearing seat in the case (deposited through the oil hole in the bearing shell) this is probably more molten bearing metal?
Can anyone tell me how serious this damage is?
Thanks in advance.
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QUOTE(DavidSweden @ Jun 21 2021, 06:22 AM)
After the problems I discovered with the heads, I could not stop myself splitting the case and I found more problems.
The thrust bearing at the flywheel end was toast, big pieces missing, on the positive side there does not appear to be any damage to the case or crank. What would cause this type of bearing failure?
What was a bit worse was one that the number 6 bearing had rotated in the case, the oil hole in the bearing shell was full with what looked like metal (molten from the bearing?) and both bearing tags have cut into the case, there is also a round metal deposit on the bearing seat in the case (deposited through the oil hole in the bearing shell) this is probably more molten bearing metal?
Can anyone tell me how serious this damage is?
Thanks in advance.
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Oh dear not what you were expecting
,there was talk on Pelican a while back about a bad batch of Glyco bearing which were delaminating the white metal as per your issue,it was said that the top engine builders in the US stopped using them and went Federal Mogal brand if memory serves me.This issue was occurring in a rather sort period of time ,to me it looks like white metal has migrated to the bearing that has spun,biggest problem here is all that crap has gone thru the engine ,I would expect the oil pump with be damaged and the oil cooler will full of it not to mention other area's of concern.
Personally I would look for another shortblock as the cost to remedy that case could end up to be very expensive,most likely better not to go there as a replacement may only require a line bore and oversize bearings.
Sorry to see you have this issue,good luck.
Get a quote from your machine shop and go from there. When you buy any core engines be, it’s impossible to tell what you have until you open it up.
Rod Bearings have to be worse...
Well bummer, sorry dude. I love those little short strokes. I was looking forward to hearing it. Maybe someone here has a case they're using as a door stop, that needs less work.
The 2.2T is a mag case, so I would consider it a doorstop now.
If you were any closer to me, I would give you a good case I have from a 72. 2.4. But shipping it halfway around the world probably won't be cost effective.
If the crank is not damaged, I would suggest you get a replacement case.
You can find a case from a 2.2 or a 2.4. The spigot sizes are the same. The only difference is the 2.2 uses a 66mm stroke crank, and the 2.4 uses a 70.4mm stroke crank.
Good luck.
Clay
If you were any closer to me, I would give you a good case I have from a 72. 2.4. But shipping it halfway around the world probably won't be cost effective.
If the crank is not damaged, I would suggest you get a replacement case.
You can find a case from a 2.2 or a 2.4. The spigot sizes are the same. The only difference is the 2.2 uses a 66mm stroke crank, and the 2.4 uses a 70.4mm stroke crank.
Good luck.
Clay
QUOTE(mepstein @ Jun 20 2021, 02:34 PM)
Get a quote from your machine shop and go from there. When you buy any core engines be, it’s impossible to tell what you have until you open it up.
I agree - get a quote from a knowledgeable machinist before writing the case off. Also, at this point, strip down the rest and see what the rod bearings look like; cams, followers, etc
Figure out what is usable and what needs replacing - them move from there.
- Tony
QUOTE(mepstein @ Jun 21 2021, 09:34 AM)
Get a quote from your machine shop and go from there. When you buy any core engines be, it’s impossible to tell what you have until you open it up.
Yes and no,you have to be unlucky to find a case /crank that has suffered this kind of carnage and this repair isn't viable simple as that,whipping a dead horse as they say.
sixnotfour added more to this issue,besides a 66mm crank is worth little and not worth machining the one the OP has and it will be toast,oversize bearings are expensive too ,without issue these cranks will polish and still be within stock spec.
The 2.2T 2.4T is a very under stressed motor in stock form and I think folks tend to group them in with 2.7 issues because they are magnesium....wrong really the issues are the the 2.7 not the other smaller displacement motors .
Rant over.
Bad news from the machine shop it looks like the 2,2 T case will be difficult to put right 
Their advise is to find a replacement case, that is not what I wanted to hear. If anyone has a servicable 2,2T crankcase they want to part with then please get in touch.
Thanks in advance
Their advise is to find a replacement case, that is not what I wanted to hear. If anyone has a servicable 2,2T crankcase they want to part with then please get in touch.
Thanks in advance
I’m pretty sure I have one. I’ll check at the shop tomorrow.
I have a serviceable 2.4T crankcase. The only difference between a 2.2 and a 2.4 is the crankshaft. The spigot sizes are identical.
Clay
Clay
Get the case sent to Ollie's (etc) while it' still in the US.
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